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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.08 17:25:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Dianabolic
If we're going to balance it, we must ignore lag. Lag affects everyone equally, if we're to consider lag then half the mods and ships in eve are imbalanced (example, shields are imbalanced over armour because shields will naturally regen, in lag you can't activate an armor repper, ergo shields > armour, you see my point I'm sure).
I'm sorry Dianabolic, but this statement is incorrect when it comes to titans. If a titan warps to a grid to DD, he does not need to wait for the enemies to show up to hit his DD, he does not need to wait on any kind of target lock. He can warp in, click the DD, wait till it fires and get out again. Anyone else on a grid or warping to a grid must wait till the grid loads, till he can target an opponent, only then can he activate his modules and start shooting. So lag definitely affects titans less than other ships because the DD is not nearly affected by lag as much as other weapons (with the exception of smartbombs, but I don't see them as a viable weapon in those engagements).
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 07:36:00 -
[2]
The current mechanics are flawed. Titans shine when there are big fleets who cause lag, because lag makes a DD effective. As BoB and many others have stated, warping out before a DD goes off is easy. But only if there is no lag. And the current mechanics guarantee that in a sovereignty fight there will be a lot of lag.
If CCP wants the best solution, perhaps even without nerfing titans, it would be to change POS and sovereignty mechanics. Remove sovereignty based on POSses and systems, and change it to being constellation based and based on activity. If you can contest sovereignty over 6-10 systems in a constellation, the titan is less valuable since fleets can jump to another system, making it less easy for a titan to follow them all the time. If you make not POS but activity in the systems the key to sovereignty, you don't need uberblobs at specifically timed moments (when POS come out of reinforced) to take out a system, you can do it with skirmishes all over a constellation.
But I am convinced that something needs to change or this game will slowly go to hell. We have 50+ confirmed titans I think by last count, how many will we have at the end of the year? When the moment comes that big alliances can field 5+ titans at any given moment of the day, their Sov 3/4 systems become invulnerable. And I bet that we're getting there pretty fast, particularly if/when titan accounts are being shared.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:09:00 -
[3]
Originally by: thoth foc
Edited by: thoth foc on 09/05/2008 08:54:14
Originally by: geno effort
Nobody can keep a sizable defense force in a system 23/7, but they can definitely keep a few titans (out of 10... 20... 30 in the future) in a system 23/7, or a system that's jumpbridged to the target system, or in jump range to a system that's jumpbridged to the target system, especially with the account sharing going on. This is the whole point of the thread, remember?
Sure, there are other broken mechanics in current sov warfare, such as jump bridges working under cyno jammers, incapacitated cyno jammers destroyable and new ones re-anchorable in minutes, and so on, but let's talk titans in this thread.
Account sharing is against the EULA.. i suggest you petition characters rather than spamming accusations on CAOD..
As for your titan arguements.. well if your only thoughts on attack is to lemming jump fleets into systems.. it is only proper that you should keep on dying horribly to DD's tbh..
If you read molle's post 361, a far better solution is to remove insurance.. that hits all parts of a fleet.. initially, further reduces blobbing and leaves the titan ship much more vulnerable to getting kill..
titans getting killed by players is always going to be a far better solution to having "too many titans" than whining to get them nerfed..
I guess we'll just have to see how 0.0 warfare evolves with the number of titans increasing. I predict that unless they are changed/nerfed or sovereignty mechanics seriously modified, the steady increase in the number of titans will lead to serious problems in terms of the attractiveness/viability of 0.0 warfare.
Just like happened before the remote DD was nerfed. And before the HICtor was introduced. And before titans could not jump out.
Had we/CCP listened to you before that happened, none of these changes would have occurred. But of course, none of those were actually needed nerfs, right?
Maybe CCP should introduce the Polaris frigate. To be built at a cost of 1 trillion isk. And then laugh at anyone who whines about it being overpowered.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Void Seller
Originally by: Lord WarATron
nobody has had any major problem incaping a jammer by surprise since nobody camps a jammer 24/7 365 days a year.
Use your brain before posting ghaelsto
People camp Jammers 24/7 365 days a year?
Yes, because its really hard to have a few spies around who tell you who is going to attack you at any given moment, and you are not able to react to attackers by jumpbridging your titans between cynojammed systems at will.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:28:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr
So if it is so easy, why hasn't the coalition done any of this?
Maybe it is harder than BoB makes it look like?
How many Sov 4 constellations have you taken from RA? Or Triumvirate? Or MM? Or AAA?
How about you prove how easy it is to take out Sov 4 constellations from an alliance with a large enough membership and numerous titans that has not already fallen apart due to internal bickering or absence of leadership (i.e. MC).
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Void Seller
Rofl, spies work 24/7, titan camp 24/7... omagad bob don't sleep?
Yes, because an alliance is only able/allowed to have one spy. And a spy must be online at the exact moment of the attack to be able to reveal the attack beforehand. Its not like he could be online in the 2-3 days prior to an attack and hear about the upcoming operation, since it takes no preparation to get the BS fleet and the capital fleet ready and within jumprange of a prospective target.
So you must be right, BoB has a spy that is online 23/7. Haxxors!
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: Malachon Draco
I guess we'll just have to see how 0.0 warfare evolves with the number of titans increasing. I predict that unless they are changed/nerfed or sovereignty mechanics seriously modified, the steady increase in the number of titans will lead to serious problems in terms of the attractiveness/viability of 0.0 warfare.
Sovereignty mechanics and the game economy are far more serious issues than titans.. in the end a titan is just a ship, and if you apply a little intelligence a ship can be killed..
Only if your opponent is reckless/stupid.
And you didn't address my main point. Already we have seen 3 solid nerfs to titans. Yet many of you claimed beforehand that 'titans were fine'.
So what happened?
Did CCP cave in?
Do you think you would have been able to kill Oort if it had still been possible to remote DD? Or if the HICtor had not been introduced? Or if he could have jumped out seconds after DDing?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 09:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr
So if it is so easy, why hasn't the coalition done any of this?
Maybe it is harder than BoB makes it look like?
How many Sov 4 constellations have you taken from RA? Or Triumvirate? Or MM? Or AAA?
How about you prove how easy it is to take out Sov 4 constellations from an alliance with a large enough membership and numerous titans that has not already fallen apart due to internal bickering or absence of leadership (i.e. MC).
Is that like the "omg you cant take cynojammed + titan systems.. cynojammer must be overpowered" arguement?
I dont honestly think you believe BOB's leadership decides it's goals based on CAOD.. do you?
Where did I say that?
All I am saying is that a Sov 4 constellation defended by a functioning alliance with a number of titans is virtually impregnable.
Your response is: Nuhuh! It is easy.
My response is: Show us some proof. Forget the bloody theorycrafting. Show us proof. Either by you, or by anyone else. I'm also satisfied if Triumvirate manages to break a MM Sov 4 constellation or vice versa. Or if SMACK-FIX or whatever they are called manage to take out a RA Sov 4 constellation which is being defended.
So far all I see from you is theory about 'how easy it is' while you ignore all the practical problems of spies, accountsharing, lag and people having lives beyond Eve.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 11:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zeveron
Again if somthing needs to be done is disable the cynojammer functionality for a sort period of time so the attacker can jump in dreads and try to kill the titan, if and only if a DD is fired.
Ok. Thank you for this. So at least you acknowledge something is still wrong with the current situation since otherwise you would not suggest a change, right? 
Now all we gotta discuss what change would be appropriate.
Nice to see we are making progress here 
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 13:51:00 -
[10]
So if I understand the tactic correctly, the key to taking out a system is that you run some kind of alarmclock op that catches the enemy by surprise, then make sure you can camp the system with 200+ people for at least 48 hours to prevent him from bringing in reinforcements in order to take out a Sov 3 system.
How about having the opinion that that is not a reasonable amount of effort to ask from people that just want to play a game? I agree that the game should not be dumbed down or made easier in the sense that it takes no effort to achieve something. But 'requiring significant effort' is still several steps below 'needing 200 people to camp a system for 48 hours'.
And I also fail to see how this not encourages blobbing. If this is the basic requirement for the attacker, how is that not 'forcing blobbing' to a pretty extreme extent?
Something needs to change, either in Titans, or in sovereignty mechanics. Because I don't see how this game will remain viable at the territorial alliance level if this is the basic requirement that an alliance needs to meet in order to get space in the first place.
Because as the number of titans increases, the game will get more stale because you make it more and more impossible for newer alliances to get space of their own. Aside from the big alliances, soon every midsized alliance will have 1 or more titans, and then the small spaceholding alliances. And then the only ones who could still conceivably take space, even under the assumptions of the BoB posters here, are people who can afford to drop 200 people in a system and hold it for 48 hours...
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 13:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Satan Clouse
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
The only thing it does do is discourage fights of all kinds, ESPECIALLY small fights because the risk to the Titan is greatly reduced.
u fail because u dont think, or ur FC's dont think.
noone orders ur fleet to warp to a single warpin point. if u blob in a single place ur easy targets.
if everyone would warp in from different places DD would be useless as it would only get a handful of killmails and is instantly at a risk to get tackled.
war is an art that only few understand.
Yes, because warping only a few ships in to take out a cynojammer is a winning strategy.
I think you fail to see the purpose of bringing a fleet somewhere.
The goal is not to play hide and seek with a titan. The goal is generally to blow something up. Something that requires a large amount of firepower. And in order to produce that large amount of firepower, you need to get your fleet together on a grid. At which point they become vulnerable to a DD.
It sounds great in theorycrafting that you could 'warp in small groups' etc etc. but all that means is that the conventional fleet of your enemy will blow you to bits because you can't concentrate fire. Or that the POS you're trying to kill will rip you to shreds all by itself.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 14:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Tassi
If those things would be special gifts from events, okay, but not this joke.
lmao, I can see it now.
CCP: "grats bob for winning a doomsday mod"
Cryalition: "WHAAAAAAAAAA CHEATZ HAX WHAAAAAAAAAAAA"
Yes, because you have never gotten anything unfairly from CCP. 
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 14:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr
Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 09/05/2008 14:36:30
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr
Except nobody ever filled a system with 1000 pilots UNTIL there were titans.
There was no titan around in jv1v, or was Ens/Chow in system? ok there was one in production, but that's about it. Human nature is so that it will exploit any advantage it can get to win. If that means having to pour 1000 people into a system, they will.
It was about killing a baby-titan. Think Chow was around as well, not sure though. But even when ASCN and BOB attacked EC- it was about supercaps. A continuous camp of 300-600 people, camping a system for 6 days straight. And why? Because it was the possible buildlocation of a supercap...
And you say titans don't cause blobs 
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 14:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Too bad you've been playing for so long and still can't spot a trolling remark though
:(
I'm still in shock are you being blue!
HEY! Don't speak in the present tense please. And I can see you're in shock, or you would not garble the sequence of words in your sentences, that is so unlike you.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.05.09 20:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Your response is: Nuhuh! It is easy.
My response is: Show us some proof. Forget the bloody theorycrafting. Show us proof. Either by you, or by anyone else. I'm also satisfied if Triumvirate manages to break a MM Sov 4 constellation or vice versa. Or if SMACK-FIX or whatever they are called manage to take out a RA Sov 4 constellation which is being defended.
After going trough whole bloody thread i concluded one thing...
Even if BoB whipe all of the god damn EvE You and noblets like You would still be here on forum (which matters btw!!! :))) asking for proofs and for other assorted BS. On a side note i am glad to see you are still bitter same as you have been when your beloved ASCN proved to be a spine less bunch of care bears.
There is simply only one problem with EvE.
We are better then you. And all you can do is cry about it!
Amount of people whining in this thread is so amazing. There have been number of good posts here which anyone with little brain can grasp how to solve problem in future. About rest of you no one cares anyway.
Thanks. If all you got left is Ad Hominem attacks I guess that means I've won the argument. I'll let you proceed to the namecalling part of this exchange on your own, I have no desire to follow you there.
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